Curse

Ellis 404 · Jun 03, 2010, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Maybe not in High School and under, but in College guess what? Not only will you get a F in that course, but you'll also be recommended for expulsion. So basically F's in every course, losing tuition, and also having what can only be equated as an acedemic felony on your record. So, yes taking heed would be well advised.

Hell, this usually applies to any form of cheating in college, including on small stuff like homework assignments, if they can prove you've done it.

Horace Slughorn · Jun 04, 2010, 12:00 AM // 00:00

almost 1000 posts in this mother, keep up the "constructive debate" ya'll

JoeKnowMo · Jun 04, 2010, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZainAhmed

Lol! cheating on a test doesn't give you an F for the whole course...just the test...which is like a slap on the back of your head, so take heed next time?

Once you get out of elementary school the rules change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

Seems I missed some fun.

3.7k bans...nice

Welcome back. We missed your frank and caustic posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace Slughorn

almost 1000 posts in this mother, keep up the "constructive debate" ya'll

Okey dokey.

ZainAhmed · Jun 04, 2010, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Ah, so you want them to remove only what botters gained by botting and no other punishment? Let's say someone raptor botted their ass off and got many many 100's of k's. Then they bought ectos with that. Then they bought stuff with half ectos and half gold they got not botting. Then they sold that. Then they bought other stuff. Then they did this and that and this and that.

Now you tell me: what does anet delete?

Also: lol @ removing only stuff they got from cheating.

Idk about pve bots...someone out there must have something...maybe if you start gw with a bot/injection you can't trade or sell anything... and any gold you gained just disappears/given to poor and needy(lol) the next time you start xD...imagine the look on peoples faces...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Maybe not in High School and under, but in College guess what? Not only will you get a F in that course, but you'll also be recommended for expulsion. So basically F's in every course, losing tuition, and also having what can only be equated as an acedemic felony on your record. So, yes taking heed would be well advised.

Yea there's no final exam in gw...I can't make a comparison...maybe tournament finals in gvg...you cheat you get perma ban...you cheat in RA...temporary ban...why does no one get it...???? People who got into top 100 with bots should be perma banned. A botter in RA is no different from a bsurge or touchers spamming shit in RA.

Idk what colleges/universities Essencse is talking about but that's harsh...and i'm guessing that people still cheat on finals. Academic felony...xD

Dosearius Takerius · Jun 04, 2010, 02:36 AM // 02:36

What's the point of all this rationalizing crap?

All this 'I only cheated once, or maybe six times and then i stopped' or 'It's anets fault cause they let people get away with it for so long', or 'I did not really gain anything from it'...

It's all just more QQ'ing disguised as trying to justify *insert banned knucklehead here* actions.

Bottom line, those banned broke the rules. Nowhere in the agreement does it say anything about Anet having to act on any rule infraction within a certain amount of time.

Johanne Lang · Jun 04, 2010, 11:58 AM // 11:58

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is why someone would bother botting in a Free to Play game? What are you going to get out of it?? I'm fairly sure I'm going to get chopped at the knees, but it seems to me that the 3.7k accounts that got banned were kids that stole mom or dad's credit card. (And I hope I get chopped at the knees because paying for the ability to bot in a F2P game is the epitome of sadness and reiterates why I've lost faith in society).

Kydd · Jun 04, 2010, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Pretty sure botters got their bots for free they weren't payin real life money for them.

Eragon Zarroc · Jun 04, 2010, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johanne Lang

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is why someone would bother botting in a Free to Play game? What are you going to get out of it?? I'm fairly sure I'm going to get chopped at the knees, but it seems to me that the 3.7k accounts that got banned were kids that stole mom or dad's credit card. (And I hope I get chopped at the knees because paying for the ability to bot in a F2P game is the epitome of sadness and reiterates why I've lost faith in society).

many of them were people who downloaded free bots or they were the creators of the bots.

buzzerman · Jun 04, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

I don't really understand what's the big deal about botting in solo PvE, as a smarter alternative to mindlessly grinding/farming for gold/items or silly titles that don't really affect other players in the game or the fairness of PvP interaction.
Let's be honest, unless you're retarded or have no life, nobody really likes to kill the same NPCs over and over again, for hours. Or to be stuck in front of the computer just to double-click on your virtual booze every minute or so (how dumb is this, really?). I really think Anet should revise their EULA and allow at least some sort of automation (macros?) for the mindlessly repetitive PvE actions they designed -- like getting the drunkard title, or even for automatic farming of a specific PvE spot for reputation points or "event" drops, if one is so determined..

I would say it's also a matter of basic player rights - as long as I am not causing any harm to other players, or getting any significant, game breaking advantage over other players (read: PvP) I don't think they should police the way I choose to play (or not play

) the game in the privacy of our own PvE instance.

Obviously, botting in PvP is a completely different deal -- we can all agree that cheaters/exploiters/botters in PvP should be hunted down and perma-banned. They are clearly violating fair play. But PvE farming ?!

That's the main thing I don't like about this recent ban-fest by Anet: that they perma-banned all PvE and PvP botters just the same, even though the two EULA violations are very, very different from a "fair play" point of view.
I know the "slippery slope" argument is what made them treat the two EULA violations the same way, but come on, if they really cared about their player base they could probably show some fairness and give only temporary bans to the PvE botters (with some sort of 2-strikes warning). Especially to those who played fairly for 5 years, didn't accumulate enormous wealth etc.

This kind of hypocrisy ('cause it looks like in fact they really wanted to brag about banning a lot of players at once, indiscriminately) reminds me of one of the most hypocritical messages one could see in a grind game like GW had become:

You have been playing for two hours, please take a break.

Seriously? Why not let me write a script that can do all that boring, repetitive and time-consuming stuff in the game while I take a break?

Firebaall · Jun 04, 2010, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzerman

*blah, blah, blah*

You're an ignorant fool if you can't see how botting in PVE is as deserving of a perma ban.

Why should you be allowed to automate the collection of in game wealth? By that same brush stroke, you'd be permitted to compete against honest players trying to purchase an item with that ill gained money. Just like cheating a player in PvP, you're cheating real players through PvE gains.

Bot PvE, Bot PvP = GTFO of my game.

Klimtog · Jun 04, 2010, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzerman

Seriously? Why not let me write a script that can do all that boring, repetitive and time-consuming stuff in the game while I take a break?

If you don't want to play the game, don't play it. Quit trying to hide your desire to have an advantage over others behind this "No one wants to do this grind" argument. If you don't like GW, then why do you play it? If you've played GW to the point where everything is pointless grind, go play another game.

buzzerman · Jun 04, 2010, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebaall

Why should you be allowed to automate the collection of in game wealth?

Maybe because your envy for other's in-game wealth should not really get in the way of enjoying the game?

There is always going to be people with way more wealth than you in this game. That might very well be because some of them are like sick puppies with no life who can spend hours grinding for that kind of wealth. So they can show to their virtual friends what a great armor or weapon only they could buy.. I don't think we should be encouraging this attitude that much.

Quote:

By that same brush stroke, you'd be permitted to compete against honest players trying to purchase an item with that ill gained money.

I didn't realize that "wealth competition" is such an essential aspect of this game. That must be because I don't play games like these just to show off elite armors or weapons, or silly PvE titles or whatever else I might have accumulated through my oh-so-glorious mindless farming.. I am very well aware that some people have the time to make that kind of wealth, but they sacrificed something else for it (real life or, some of them, real money), so I don't envy their virtual wealth in the game. I think it's rather sad.
Also, have you noticed that being recognized as a "top guild" or a "top player" in Guild Wars has in fact no relationship with in game wealth?

Quote:

Just like cheating a player in PvP, you're cheating real players through PvE gains.

I still can't figure out where is this "feeling cheated" attitude comes from -- unless your anger is just fueled by the good old money envy here. I thought Guild Wars - at least the social aspect of it - was supposed to be a game of skill, not of wealth (accumulated through zombification of twitchy asocial players with their pale faces glued to to their computer screens; now that is "ill gained" too, IMO

). Maybe you should get a clue from the fact that in game wealth doesn't give you any advantage in PvP (which is a great design decision, of course). Frankly, for this reason I don't really see any logical explanation as for why Anet is against RMT (which they cannot really stop anyway -- and why should they? if someone is stupid enough to spend real money for virtual wealth.. it's their choice. And how is that different from buying some silly vanity "costume" that Anet sells?)

Besides, Anet could impose more limitations on the amount of wealth that can be obtained through repetitive solo PvE farming -- and guess what, they've already done that in fact (remember the various farming nerfs?). They could also make the most "profitable" areas to be un-bottable -- and they've already done that too (e.g. DoA). They could even pile up some more limitations to repetitive solo-PvE farming to discourage abnormal wealth accumulation by these means (like disconnect a player after several hours if all that player did was farming the same mob repeatedly without partying with other people etc.).

Klimtog · Jun 04, 2010, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzerman

Besides, Anet could impose more limitations on the amount of wealth that can be obtained through repetitive solo PvE farming -- and guess what, they've already done that in fact (remember the various farming nerfs?). They could also make the most "profitable" areas to be un-bottable -- and they've already done that too (e.g. DoA). They could even pile up some more limitations to repetitive solo-PvE farming to discourage abnormal wealth accumulation by these means (like disconnect a player after several hours if all that player did was farming the same mob repeatedly without partying with other people etc.).

You know what else they can do to limit the amount of wealth that can be obtained through repetitive solo PvE farming?

Ban botters.

Kharmin · Jun 04, 2010, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzerman

I am very well aware that some people have the time to make that kind of wealth, but they sacrificed something else for it (real life or, some of them, real money), so I don't envy their virtual wealth in the game. I think it's rather sad.

Apparently not everyone has that kind of time because many have used bots or whatever to acquire their wealth. That's part of the problem.

Eragon Zarroc · Jun 04, 2010, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzerman

was supposed to be a game of skill, not of wealth

if it is a game of skill and not wealth, why acquire the wealth that is not needed through the least skillfull means possible? sounds a little contradictory.

buzzerman · Jun 04, 2010, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klimtog

If you don't want to play the game, don't play it. Quit trying to hide your desire to have an advantage over others behind this "No one wants to do this grind" argument. If you don't like GW, then why do you play it?

Actually I still like the game but the introduction of time-consuming PvE titles really weakened my appetite for it, and the repetitive aspect of working for those titles (aka "grind") is basically begging for automation/scripting (well, I am a programmer, automation is my profession

), so I am not quite sure why at least some mild macroing/scripting of tedious tasks shouldn't be allowed (with some limitations, of course). Luckily I don't really care much for these in game titles (I don't have time for filling my HoM for GW2), but some of them can actually hurt the gameplay - for example, when I would not be accepted in a PUG because I lack a high rank in some useful PvE title (this used to be the case with Ursan groups and it still is for DoA).

Quote:

If you've played GW to the point where everything is pointless grind, go play another game.

Of course. I admit it's not "everything" pointless grind, overall GW still remains a beautiful and innovative game (and it has the most ergonomic UI I have ever used in this kind of game) and I am truly impressed that Anet is still adding some tidbits of content so late in the game's life cycle. I just wanted to point out what I think it was a bit of inconsistency in Anet's (and some players') gameplay philosophy here: they think it's OK to punish the people who found a way around the PvE grind just the same with real PvP cheaters. If Anet indeed had the means to make the distinction between the two types of botters (PvE-only vs. any PvP) I would say it was quite unfair for them not to reflect that moral distinction into the penalties they applied. It just made me question their whole policy against botting in PvE -- especially now that simple [bottable] farms are not that profitable in terms of wealth accumulation (and they could easily limit it further).

Ka Tet · Jun 04, 2010, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Even odder is allowing the banned to buy new accounts.

Anet: You are entirely unfit to play this game. You are banned for life, you will never play again.
Player1: I soz. I can haz cheezburger?
Anet: No you are vile filthy scum and we don't want you in our game.
Player1: I haz moneyz.
Anet: Ok second chance.
Player2: I haz no moneyz? I can haz cheezburger 2?
Anet: No you are vile filthy scum and we don't want you in our game.

Hypocrisy? A mild form of extortion? Or just the new no-monthly fee mmo business model?

buzzerman · Jun 04, 2010, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

if it is a game of skill and not wealth, why acquire the wealth that is not needed through the least skillfull means possible? sounds a little contradictory.

Because accumulating wealth in solo PvE doesn't quite require skill, but mostly time (grind).
This issue is also related to the fact that GW provides rather poor rewards for completing various areas or missions (I suppose most people wouldn't even bother to farm if the rewards for going through a dungeon or vanquishing an area, or replaying a [elite] mission, were much better)

buzzerman · Jun 04, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

Even odder is allowing the banned to buy new accounts.

Actually I think this makes sense -- to give a 2nd chance and a clean slate to a player after Anet firmly showed that they could catch him/her. It looks very forgiving, and it just happens to help the business, so why not?

Did you notice that the GWCA project was essentially shut down by this mass ban? Mission accomplished, gg Anet. I am pretty sure that many, if not most of those who used GWCA and got banned for it will not try to use it again with their new accounts, exactly because they just learned that they could get banned for it, the hard way. So why not allow them to start fresh?

I am also pretty sure that the same "corrective" effect would have been obtained if they just suspended those accounts for a while instead of permanently banning them. But in that case there would be no profit for Anet, of course..

Firebaall · Jun 04, 2010, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzerman

Maybe because your envy for other's in-game wealth should not really get in the way of enjoying the game?

There is always going to be people with way more wealth than you in this game. That might very well be because some of them are like sick puppies with no life who can spend hours grinding for that kind of wealth. So they can show to their virtual friends what a great armor or weapon only they could buy.. I don't think we should be encouraging this attitude that much.

Not a case of envy at all. I do just fine. I also have the protections under the TOS and player agreement to help maintain the worth of my efforts. Plain and simple, you don't have the right to automate tasks that others must manually perform.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzerman

I didn't realize that "wealth competition" is such an essential aspect of this game. That must be because I don't play games like these just to show off elite armors or weapons, or silly PvE titles or whatever else I might have accumulated through my oh-so-glorious mindless farming.. I am very well aware that some people have the time to make that kind of wealth, but they sacrificed something else for it (real life or, some of them, real money), so I don't envy their virtual wealth in the game. I think it's rather sad.
Also, have you noticed that being recognized as a "top guild" or a "top player" in Guild Wars has in fact no relationship with in game wealth?

I feel sad for you. Seeing that rare drop or playing for that hard earned elite gear is the lifeblood of online RPGs/MMOs. "Wealth Competition" does matter. How could you think that "Joe botter" that automated his way to money and title deserves to have that recognized with anything more that a ban hammer in the face?

More directly, those botters could afford to hurt in game economy by outbidding and underselling legitimate players. Real people that don't have the resources in time to compete, yet are forced to share gamespace with those that didn't either but had many times their resources to spend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzerman

I still can't figure out where is this "feeling cheated" attitude comes from -- unless your anger is just fueled by the good old money envy here. I thought Guild Wars - at least the social aspect of it - was supposed to be a game of skill, not of wealth (accumulated through zombification of twitchy asocial players with their pale faces glued to to their computer screens; now that is "ill gained" too, IMO

). Maybe you should get a clue from the fact that in game wealth doesn't give you any advantage in PvP (which is a great design decision, of course). Frankly, for this reason I don't really see any logical explanation as for why Anet is against RMT (which they cannot really stop anyway -- and why should they? if someone is stupid enough to spend real money for virtual wealth.. it's their choice. And how is that different from buying some silly vanity "costume" that Anet sells?)

Personally, my outrage is not envy driven. It's about not having a level playing field. It's about equal reward for equal effort. PvE dwarfs PvP in terms of playerbase. Much of that reason is because of the rewards of in game wealth. It might not be your cup of tea, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzerman

Besides, Anet could impose more limitations on the amount of wealth that can be obtained through repetitive solo PvE farming -- and guess what, they've already done that in fact (remember the various farming nerfs?). They could also make the most "profitable" areas to be un-bottable -- and they've already done that too (e.g. DoA). They could even pile up some more limitations to repetitive solo-PvE farming to discourage abnormal wealth accumulation by these means (like disconnect a player after several hours if all that player did was farming the same mob repeatedly without partying with other people etc.).

You must have missed the loot scaling, and it's removal then. Anet knows what really drives RPG players. They are going to cater to the biggest gamer population. You are not it. This is also why they will ban your ass for botting PvE content. End of story.